Ok, here’s ‘my two cents.’
To start, I regard capitalism and liberty as one and the same and I will use them interchangeably. Also, please do not conflict liberty with the vast differences of 'positive liberties' and 'positive rights,' they are contrary to my position presented here.
Perhaps capitalism stands outside of morality. It is possibly not a definable idea that must be forcibly adhered to, but something that can nurture beneficial ideas.
I would like to attribute memetics to the overall positive, and extremely necessary, design of liberty. It in essence does not associate with self-interest or altruism, but rather stands aside to let civilisation voluntarily shape its course. Following this view of memetics, things that work are utilised, and things that don’t work are eventually weeded out. (Apologies for the longwindedness of this, but as a side note, it is interesting that Karl Popper had discussed a similar approach to ideas in his analysis of knowledge and the body-mind problem. It represents what Popper called an “oversimplified tetradic schema of the method of trial and of error elimination”: P1-->TT-->EE-->P2 : “Here ‘P1’ means the problem the problem from which we start. It may be a practical or a theoretical problem. ‘TT’ is a tentative theory which we offer in order to solve that problem. ‘EE’ means a process of error elimination, by way of critical tests, or of critical discussion. ‘P2’ means the problems with which we end – the problems which emerge from the discussions and tests.”)
Quoting Karl Popper, and supporting why I believe the above is important to morality (beware, it’s only an opinion, you’d have to read his books for the foundations of his beliefs), “I think we are living in a world in which we have constantly to revise and constantly to rethink over not only our scientific propositions but also our moral attitudes. There arise new problems which cut right through what we have thought of as generally accepted moral precept, and so on.”
Now, I can see that since Descartes, and following the line of French rationalists, that social engineering has become popular. It is posited that, by rational thinking, a system can be designed that actively moves society towards things that are deemed beneficial to humanity. It is this particular trail of ‘planned’ moralism which 1) cannot understand the constant evolution of humanity, and, 2) by virtue of man’s individuality, not have knowledge/information required to direct appropriately.
Following from that line of thinking, it might not be possible to say one is always better than the other (in terms of selfishness and altruism). There might rather be another view that is tied into an understanding of humanity’s vast differences in opinions and action, but that in the end, we assess each idea for its usefulness and amend as required. The key of course in this view is that we can’t absolutely conclude what is best for humanity, but rather leave it to individuals and inevitable societal cohesion.
When I read John Stuart Mill’s “On Liberty,” there was one part that I found influential in my thinking, “Human nature is not a machine to be built after a model, and set to do exactly the work prescribed for it, but a tree, which requires to grow and develop itself on all sides, according to the tendency of the inward forces which make it a living thing."
F. A. Hayek alluded to the same idea in “The Constitution of Liberty.” It wasn’t as though we must ascribe to one belief or the other, but a fusion of the two that worked best in whichever situation. Quoting him, “General altruism, however, is a meaningless conception. Nobody can effectively care for other people as such; the responsibilities we can assume must always be particular, can concern only those about whom we know concrete facts and to whom either choice or special conditions have attached us. It is one of the fundamental rights and duties of a free man to decide what and whose needs appear to him most important.
“The recognition that each person has his own scale of values which we ought to respect, even if we do not approve of it, is part of the conception of the value of the individual personality. How we value another person will necessarily depend on what his values are. But believing in freedom means that we do not regard ourselves as the ultimate judges of another person’s values, that we do not feel entitled to prevent him from pursuing ends which we disapprove so long as he does not infringe the equally protected sphere of others.”
With liberty and capitalism as the bulwark of individuality and spontaneity, it allows this social engineering to occur, but without coercion and absoluteness that I don’t believe possible.
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15 years ago
10 comments:
"Capitalism...can nuture beneficial ideas."
"In the end, we assess each idea for its usefulness and amend as required."
How very consequentialist of you! No complaints from me on these points :)
But by the same token, it stands that if and when capitalism has detrimental effects, it should be held accountable for these also.
In other words, nothing is absolute or untouchable. Not even liberty.
On that point, refer to my criticism of social engineering. A planned economy doesn't benefit society; there are always unintended consequences.
Also, read the 'parable of the broken window.' You can do a Wikipedia search on it.
Liberty is definitely touchable. Witness the last 100 years. Is it producing positive consequences with its erosion? I don't believe so.
Well, it seems I've got you talking in terms of consequences, so my job is done. :) The rest are details - reliant on knowledge of history and statistics, etc. And I suspect I can't compete with you on this level :P
As for anti-discrimination laws, I still predict they will have more positive consequences than negative, at least in the short term (in the long term, laws will continue to change anyway).
Think back to the introduction of anti-slavery laws - I'm sure many were similarly opposed to the encroachment of those laws on the liberty of slave owners. Yet I believe they have had positive consequences overall.
I think I've always been discussing consequences, but now I'm talking in your terms to show the good, or at least trying to.
Anti-discrimination laws still have negative consequences.
Property rights aren't arbitrary, and having those diminished represents clear issues and have consequences too. There are consequences when property rights are eroded.
As for the abolition movement, it sounds damning to mention the "liberty of slave owners", but that isn't how liberty works. This was a struggle in favour of liberty for everyone, and this type of thing continues today. The positive consequences come from the reinforcement of equal rights for all men.
Anti-discrimination laws are not the same discussion. (I'm sure you'll disagree :P).
Could mention the civil rights issues in the 20th century as another case where government had overstepped the mark on liberty. Public services were segregated, entrance denied etc. In these instances the law was at fault. The law was "perverted" as Bastiat would say.
"There are consequences when property rights are eroded."
Fair enough. There are consequences to everything. There are consequences to discrimination, for example.
"Anti-discrimination laws are not the same discussion. (I'm sure you'll disagree :P)."
Yeah, I disagree. You can't say anti-slavery laws are absolutely good while anti-discrimination laws are absolutely bad. You could only say that there is a point where the laws "overstep the mark on liberty". This is very subjective.
By the way, it was very sexist of me before. I want to make a correction and say "equal rights for all."
"This is very subjective."
You will need to explain how.
Also, I think to get anywhere, we will need to discuss property. This is very important to my position on anti-discrimination laws.
There is a post at a libertarian blog that might be worth reading (if you have the time...it's a bit long). http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/07/13/its-discrimination/
The point at which the "the mark on liberty" is "overstepped" is subjective. It's subjective because "the mark" is not well-defined. You could, for example, put it inside or outside of any law; inside or outside of genocide and/or murder; inside or outside of hurting others physically (in self-defense, or in hot-blood, or not); of hurting others mentally; of slavery; of corporal punishment; of control of your wife; of control of your children; of ownership of "land"/"money"; of the right to exploit the Earth; etc.
Re: the blog post: "In short, the relevant issue is whether the discrimination we engage in is rational or irrational"
Indeed. But the definition of "rational" is not as clear as the post suggests. The post suggests that for an act of discrimination to be "rational" (and therefore, implicitly, a good idea) it only requires the presence of a "statistical dependence" of the characteristic of interest on what is observed. (Interestingly, he doesn't specify a minimum level of correlation at which point the act becomes "rational" - presumably he thinks ANY positive correlation is enough.)
That's a good starting point. But an overlooked issue is the complex effects that the presence of (anti-)discrimination may have within society. For example, let's say that boys tend to get a particular contagious disease at a slightly higher rate than girls. It is then "rational discrimination" for a private hospital owner to turn away boys for fear that they may be carrying the disease - they're acting in the best interests of their existing patients. Perfectly rational. However, maybe this "rational discrimination" is the cause of the slightly higher prevalence of the disease amongst boys in the first place! I'm sure you can imagine other complex situations where the causes and effects of statistical dependence are somewhat intertwined.
In other words, there may be a difference between "rational discrimination", as defined in the post, and "discrimination that has overall positive consequences".
The post also ignores the golden rule. It would not be nice to not be able to catch a cab because of some statistical dependence of crime on one of your uncontrollable traits. What do you think about this, the golden rule in general and its adoption/effects in society?
The mark is defined well. Your point isn’t clear to me. The concept of liberty is defined clearly. It is a theory of ethics that eliminates contradictions by applying the same principle/s to all people. I’ll brace for a response.
“right to exploit the Earth” – that seems a little pointless to me since life cannot exist otherwise.
To be honest, it was the comments made to the post that I was focusing on. I should have said that earlier.
"The mark is defined well."
You said the "government had overstepped the mark on liberty" with segregation, etc. I thought by "the mark" you were referring to some appropriate level of restriction of people's actions. "Appropriate" here is subjective. i.e. what you think appropriate, another may think inappropriate.
About "right to exploit the Earth" - I was meaning the right to exploit the Earth without limit. Some might think a limit is appropriate so that other animals (humans/otherwise) may live now and in the future. Some might think otherwise.
I'll check out the post comments later :)
But anyway, what did you think about:
1) is "rational discrimination" that has negative consequences necessarily good or bad or neither?
2) what do you think of the golden rule and how does it relate to (anti-)discrimination?
We're talking about theories. Just like consequentialism is a moral theory about being absolute about no absolutes, and being guided by reducing or eliminating 'suffering.' Liberty isn’t antagonistic to this idea, but some boundaries must be respected.
The abolition movement was about eliminating coercion against a group of people, anti-descrimination laws don't relate.
1. Liberty not being influenced, not particularly important.
2. The golden rule is a nice idea, but I don't hold much to it. It's difficult to know exactly how others want to be treated without it being explicitly stated.
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